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	<title>Comments on: Black Vienna, Modern Art</title>
	<atom:link href="http://cheyne.net/blog/2008/03/black-vienna-modern-art/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://cheyne.net/blog/2008/03/black-vienna-modern-art/</link>
	<description>A minimalist blog, with a pretentious title, about strategy games.</description>
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		<title>By: Iain</title>
		<link>http://cheyne.net/blog/2008/03/black-vienna-modern-art/comment-page-1/#comment-11199</link>
		<dc:creator>Iain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:20:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cheyne.net/blog/2008/03/black-vienna-modern-art/#comment-11199</guid>
		<description>Hi Greg. Good to see you haven&#039;t vanished from the net completely.

I was trying to say that you didn&#039;t seem to mind it as much as me, but I could have expressed it far better.

A PBW moderator would certainly be a nice experiment. I&#039;m sure it wouldn&#039;t be a difficult coding project either - it&#039;s not as if there would be much of a GUI required after all. Sounds like a job for the &quot;lazyweb&quot;:http://www.hoosgot.com/.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hi Greg. Good to see you haven&#8217;t vanished from the net completely.</p>

	<p>I was trying to say that you didn&#8217;t seem to mind it as much as me, but I could have expressed it far better.</p>

	<p><span class="caps">A PBW</span> moderator would certainly be a nice experiment. I&#8217;m sure it wouldn&#8217;t be a difficult coding project either &#8211; it&#8217;s not as if there would be much of a <span class="caps">GUI</span> required after all. Sounds like a job for the <a href="<a" title="">lazyweb</a> href=&#8221;http://www.hoosgot.com/&#8221; rel=&#8221;nofollow&#8221;><a " title="">lazyweb</a> href=&#8221;http://www.hoosgot.com/&#8221; rel=&#8221;nofollow&#8221;>http://www.hoosgot.com/.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Aleknevicus</title>
		<link>http://cheyne.net/blog/2008/03/black-vienna-modern-art/comment-page-1/#comment-11172</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Aleknevicus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 18:54:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cheyne.net/blog/2008/03/black-vienna-modern-art/#comment-11172</guid>
		<description>I thought that I was clear that Black Vienna&#039;s &quot;fragility&quot; WAS a problem in the article you cited. I wrote:

&quot;There is also the issue that the game is absolutely unforgiving of mistakes—if a player accidentally indicates that he has only one spy rather than two, it will completely destroy the work of others. Since there is such a large investment of effort in the game you really do need to stress the importance of answering correctly. This is a problem with all deduction games but the reason it feels so bad here is that Black Vienna is so challenging to play. If someone makes a mistake in Clue, it&#039;s not that big a deal but if the same thing happens in Black Vienna, you feel that you&#039;ve wasted 45 minutes of intense effort.&quot;

What I didn&#039;t state in the article, is that I very rarely play Black Vienna anymore precisely because of this issue. It&#039;s absolutely fantastic when it&#039;s played without errors but this happens only about half the time.

I think a computer-moderated version would be ideal. Playing over a long period? I think this would IMPROVE the game. Removing the pressure to play quickly allows you to devote as much effort as you like to long chains of logic. I&#039;d love to play a game that had a turn-a-day rate of play.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I thought that I was clear that Black Vienna&#8217;s &#8220;fragility&#8221; <span class="caps">WAS</span> a problem in the article you cited. I wrote:</p>

	<p>&#8220;There is also the issue that the game is absolutely unforgiving of mistakes&#8212;if a player accidentally indicates that he has only one spy rather than two, it will completely destroy the work of others. Since there is such a large investment of effort in the game you really do need to stress the importance of answering correctly. This is a problem with all deduction games but the reason it feels so bad here is that Black Vienna is so challenging to play. If someone makes a mistake in Clue, it&#8217;s not that big a deal but if the same thing happens in Black Vienna, you feel that you&#8217;ve wasted 45 minutes of intense effort.&#8221;</p>

	<p>What I didn&#8217;t state in the article, is that I very rarely play Black Vienna anymore precisely because of this issue. It&#8217;s absolutely fantastic when it&#8217;s played without errors but this happens only about half the time.</p>

	<p>I think a computer-moderated version would be ideal. Playing over a long period? I think this would <span class="caps">IMPROVE</span> the game. Removing the pressure to play quickly allows you to devote as much effort as you like to long chains of logic. I&#8217;d love to play a game that had a turn-a-day rate of play.</p>
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		<title>By: Iain</title>
		<link>http://cheyne.net/blog/2008/03/black-vienna-modern-art/comment-page-1/#comment-10479</link>
		<dc:creator>Iain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 17:00:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cheyne.net/blog/2008/03/black-vienna-modern-art/#comment-10479</guid>
		<description>I tried it a couple of years ago. I wan&#039;t impressed. It was too light for me, but at least it didn&#039;t fall apart on us.

http://cheyne.net/blog/2006/08/july-and-august-catch-up/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I tried it a couple of years ago. I wan&#8217;t impressed. It was too light for me, but at least it didn&#8217;t fall apart on us.</p>

	<p><a href="http://cheyne.net/blog/2006/08/july-and-august-catch-up/" rel="nofollow">http://cheyne.net/blog/2006/08/july-and-august-catch-up/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Coon</title>
		<link>http://cheyne.net/blog/2008/03/black-vienna-modern-art/comment-page-1/#comment-10478</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Coon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 16:55:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cheyne.net/blog/2008/03/black-vienna-modern-art/#comment-10478</guid>
		<description>Have any of you tried Timbuktu?  It&#039;s a good deduction game that doesn&#039;t require one player to disclose hidden knowledge.  The knowledge is passed around from player to player in the form of cards.  IIRC, it played best with a compliment of 5.  It is a longer game, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Have any of you tried Timbuktu?  It&#8217;s a good deduction game that doesn&#8217;t require one player to disclose hidden knowledge.  The knowledge is passed around from player to player in the form of cards.  <span class="caps">IIRC</span>, it played best with a compliment of 5.  It is a longer game, though.</p>
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		<title>By: Iain</title>
		<link>http://cheyne.net/blog/2008/03/black-vienna-modern-art/comment-page-1/#comment-10451</link>
		<dc:creator>Iain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2008 18:44:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cheyne.net/blog/2008/03/black-vienna-modern-art/#comment-10451</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re probably right. I suppose I was really thinking of programming projects for teaching myself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>You&#8217;re probably right. I suppose I was really thinking of programming projects for teaching myself.</p>
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